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A conversation on Equality and Human Rights (Early january 2018).
[8:10:47 AM] ANON949: which reminds me - re constitution changes needed - have you read High Court Definition of religion in Australia ?
[8:11:26 AM] JohnB: should be the same definition as for any other cult but I imagine it will have a strong catholic favlor
[8:12:14 AM] JohnB: They always have to redefine things so that myths and make believe become real for them
[8:12:44 AM] ANON949: ah , Murphy argued that there should be a freedom from religion rather then freedom of religion
[8:13:42 AM] ANON949: The idea of an enshrined right to be free of religion appeals to me given what has happened here when the right of religion was protected and even enhanced
[8:14:20 AM] JohnB: yes - that is the correct IMO
[8:14:40 AM] JohnB: equality says that must be available for those who have or choose to have none
[8:14:46 AM] JohnB: no association etc
[8:15:13 AM] JohnB: That would be a master blow to religion if that gets across in partliament
[8:16:14 AM] ANON949: I think its only appropriate .
[8:16:50 AM] JohnB: yes
[8:17:13 AM] ANON949: It may not be a blow to personal faith , but it might protect the public from the real terror of organized , failed church structures
[8:18:33 AM] ANON949: yes - and to me , as a 'Christian ' who does not buy the myth of persecution to justify crippling another , this would safe guard all .
[8:19:13 AM] ANON949: The created mythology that early Christians were persecuted cannot be allowed to justify the persecution of another .
[8:20:55 AM] ANON949: some of the buggers might actually make the time to understand the meaning of 'Christos ' rather then buy the deification of the 'christ' by Nicea
[8:21:44 AM] ANON949: gee , these people must hate historic facts ;-)
[8:22:55 AM] JohnB: Would this work ? as is or should we later go over and refine suitable to publish anonymise, spell check put in commas where they rightfully belong etc but it helps buld a description of what that page should be about ...
Bill of Rights Equality
[8:23:03 AM] ANON949: if religious freedom is protected under Australian law , it follows that it must protect changes of religion and the choice of no religion
[8:24:35 AM] JohnB: (y)
[8:24:41 AM] ANON949: Read that - makes sense - make it anonymous and a preamble
[8:25:20 AM] ANON949: :-)
[8:26:34 AM] JohnB: K - refresh the page
[8:33:14 AM] ANON949: http://www.unswlawjournal.unsw.edu.au - 16_bruce_1991.pd [8:34:35 AM] ANON949: The right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion is recognised in Article 18 of the ICCPR.
Article 18 protects not only the 'traditional' religious beliefs of the major religions, but also non-theistic and atheistic beliefs, as well as the right not to profess any religion or belief. The right recognised in Article 18 is simultaneously an individual right, and a collective right. It has both an 'internal' dimension (the freedom to adopt or hold a belief), and an 'external' dimension (the freedom to manifest that belief in worship, observance, practice or teaching). While the internal dimension is absolute, the external dimension can be subject to certain limitations (on the strictly restricted grounds specified in Article 18(3)).
[8:34:50 AM] ANON949: humanrights.gov.au - freedom-religion-and-belief
[8:35:36 AM] JohnB: (Y) :) - see I knew I ned the right sort of formatting - making it happen :)
[8:36:55 AM] ANON949: was thinking that current cases shown by the Royal Commission clearly show that human rights have been breached time and time again in contravention of the various international treaties that Australia signed - and no action was taken
[8:36:56 AM] JohnB: here is where my dissociation kicks in when I swap from thinking on the issue to putting it into suitable html and php
[8:37:45 AM] JohnB: but can possible see a way to automate a process that would handle it all in one go
[8:37:45 AM] ANON949: here is where my dissociation kicks in when I swap from thinking on the issue to putting it into suitable html and phpwell, yes - but I think you are great just as you are
[8:38:18 AM] JohnB: I like to swap personas like this as it keeps all those parts of me operating equally
[8:38:23 AM] JohnB: :)
[8:39:13 AM] JohnB: K - but that what happens to me some times and then I come to the conversation and will pick thast up again once it is in suitable order to retain the essence of what we are discussing athat time
[8:39:46 AM] JohnB: Good fo rme it is systems analysis on the fly intermingled with survival I think
[8:40:03 AM] ANON949: :-)
[8:40:09 AM] ANON949: The ICCPR also explicitly protects the right of parents and guardians to 'ensure the religious and moral education of their children in conformity with their own convictions.' A similar formulation is found in the European Convention on Human Rights.
[8:40:46 AM] ANON949: religious and moral education of their children in conformity with their ownor non religious and moral education
[8:41:03 AM] ANON949: https://www.humanrights.gov.au/sites/default/files/content/frb/papers/Legal_%20Aspects.pdf
[8:41:26 AM] ANON949: Much of the 1981 Declaration overlaps with and repeats the provisions of art 18 of the ICCPR.11 Sometimes it develops those rights, for example by including not only a right to non-discrimination on the basis of religion (art 2), but also creating a positive obligation on States to 'take effective measures to prevent and eliminate discrimination on the grounds of religion or belief in the recognition, exercise and enjoyment of human rights and fundamental freedoms in all fields of civil, economic, political, social and cultural life' (art 4(1)). It further elaborates on the right of parents/guardians to have their children educated according to their religious beliefs and includes the right to organise family life according to religious beliefs (art 5(1)). However, it adds the limitation that '[p]ractices of a religion or belief in which a child is brought up must not be injurious to his physical or mental health or to his full development' (art 5(5))
[8:41:37 AM] JohnB: (Y) (Y) (Y)
[8:41:45 AM] ANON949: However, it adds the limitation that '[p]ractices of a religion or belief in which a child is brought up must not be injurious to his physical or mental health or to his full development' (art 5(5))
[8:42:15 AM] ANON949: The most important development in the 1981 Declaration is that a more detailed list of
manifestations of religion is set out in art 6 in addition to the traditional formulation of 'worship, observance, practice, and teaching' set out in the Universal Declaration and ICCPR. The manifestations set out in art 6 are inclusive, rather than comprehensive, and thus only represent a sub-section of the possible range of manifestations that are protected in international law. The manifestations set out are particularly focused on the rights of religious groups and organisations, including the right to autonomy in the selection of clergy (art 6(g)), the right to purchase and maintain places and objects of worship (art 6(c)), and the right to raise funds for religious purposes (art 6(b)). There is less detail on individual manifestations of freedom of religion or belief.
[8:44:07 AM] JohnB: Yes the ability to reach therir full potential is stolen from tham at the earliest opportunity
[8:44:23 AM] ANON949: . There is less detail on individual manifestations of freedom of religion or belief.so lets make that a focus given the reality of what has happened - the manifestation of religious belief having been shown to cause harm has clearly indicated that such manifestation ( what ever recognized form to date ) must not permit / allow and assist in the creation and manifestation of harm .
[8:45:23 AM] ANON949: The key General Comment dealing with art 18 is General Comment 22 (set out in full in the Appendix). General Comment 22 is the best distillation of the international law obligation to protect freedom of religion or belief. It encapsulates the approach of both the Human Rights Committee and other international bodies, such as the European Court of Human Rights, in defining the right to freedom of religion or belief as:
protect[ing] theistic, non-theistic and atheistic beliefs, as well as the right not to profess any religion or belief. The terms 'belief' and 'religion' are to be broadly construed. Article 18 is not limited in its application to traditional religions or to religions and beliefs with institutional characteristics or practices analogous to those of traditional religions.13
[8:45:54 AM] ANON949: It is not, however, a definition of religion or belief insofar as it does not set out either a test for recognising religion or belief (as compared, for example, to a whim or preference or set of habits) or propose any limits for the sorts of behaviours that might be considered religious.
[8:47:53 AM] ANON949: Hence we do not seek to define that which is considered as a religion but define what behaviours manifesting from religious practice must be curtailed or prohibited to protect all of the community where it is shown that such manifestation of belief has caused or is likely to cause real harm to any and all members of the broader community .
[8:48:24 AM] ANON949: Hence we do not seek to define that which is considered as a religion but define what behaviours manifesting from religious practice must be curtailed or prohibited to protect all of the community where it is shown that such manifestation of belief has caused or is likely to cause real harm to any and all members of the broader community .My notation AN
the right to practice religion as an individual is not enhanced by the establishment of laws that make any one religious approach the accepted state approach , laws that protect religion or establish religion as a status for social behaviors are known for their very opposite impact in real life . Religious freedom of expression and manifestation of accepted practices must remain an individual endevour and choice , not an inculcated behavior that manifests its power by creating divisions between people at the very core of our accepted family structures and worse - allowing for and concealing criminal acts perpetrated against individuals by individuals that cloak themselves in the publicly accepted and respected manifestations of religious practice . Any law that protects the freedom of religious manifestations and beliefs must protect the rights of those choosing not to have a religious belief , those choosing not to give credence to those manifesting religious status or those representing religious views. ( more ideas )
[9:21:34 AM] ANON949: against individuals by individuals against individuals or groups perpetrated by individuals acting in concert with others cloaked in the publicly accepted and respected manifestation of any and all religious practices .
[9:22:21 AM] JohnB: OK - the points we are making will each come under an article of human rights
[9:25:26 AM] ANON949: We recognize that extant family structures have come into existence as a natural flow of growth in spite of identified religious practices and often in answer to religious practices that sought to undermine family structures and replace them with manifestations of religious practice through organizations ( bodies of faith based groups ) who sought to benefit either spiritually or financially by the displacement of family groups that had developed naturally in the face of challenges presented by the human experience of life .
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